A thread regarding cooling tower water treatment
I obtained the following discussion from the sci.engr.chem newsgroup. I have included the discussion because it makes evident some of the problems one encounters when evaluating a technology. The conclusion one could draw from the thread is that one should always verify the effectiveness of equipment before relying on it. If I did not correctly identify all of the people who posted comments, please let me know and I'll fix it.
Article: 8557 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 23:28:49 GMT
Reply-To: lowdough@interaccess.com
hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) wrote:
Question: I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion instead of using chemical treatment. The claim is that since no chemicals are used, there is no harm to the environment and I save money by not buying chemicals. It sounds too good to be true. The system consists of the LKC and a 5 micron sand filter. The cell creates a magetic field that causes the ions that create scale to "clump" together and be removed in the sand filter. The device draws 20-30 amps at 110v. From what I know, I cannot see how this will cause the effects claimed but I have spoken with several users of the system and they support the claims.
Reply: Hey, wait a minute. 20-30 amps? Even if it DOES work (which I personally doubt), that's about 3 kW. If it runs (24*30)=720 hours a month, that's 2160 kWH/month. At 7 cents per kWH, that's $150 a month. That doesn't sound too good to be true to me. How much do you apy for chemicals now?
Is it supposed to adjust the pH of the tower water, too? If not, you'll need some acid for that, anyway.
That's what I think.
Dennis Galion
CompuServe ID: 70214,2412
Huh?
Article: 8579 of sci.engr.chem
From: csterner@postoffice.ptd.net (csterner)
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 23:57:09 GMT
Question: In article 3tvoqu$5ec@newsbf02.news.aol.com, hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) says:
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion instead of using chemical treatment. The claim is that since no chemicals are used, there is no harm to the environment and I save money by not buying chemicals. It sounds too good to be true.
The system consists of the LKC and a 5 micron sand filter. The cell creates a magetic field that causes the ions that create scale to "clump" together and be removed in the sand filter. The device draws 20-30 amps at 110v. From what I know, I cannot see how this will cause the effects claimed but I have spoken with several users of the system and they support the claims.
Does any one have any comments on it's effectiveness or how a weak magnetic field can cause ions to "clump"?
Thanks for any help. Regards, Harry Danberg
Reply:
Harry
It is too good to be true. A number of times, I and my colleagues have wasted our time with people peddling this type of stuff, trying to get some rational technical sense out of them. They usually produce a bunch of buzzwords like 'ions','fields','magnetics', etc, connected by assorted technical jargon. If you ask them for proven data or adequate literature references, they will generally quit or, in some cases, will ask to speak to some non-technical person like a purchasing agent or a manager. I'd rather be approached by a pan-handler. At least, he'd be honest.
C. Sterner, P.E.
From cli@clihouston.com Fri Jul 14 11:22:29 PDT 1995
Article: 8590 of sci.engr.chem
From: "Dr. R.D. Kane" cli@clihouston.com
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Reply: Did you ever hear of the saying "there is no such thing as a free lunch".
Various people have been maing claims about magnetic devices that stop corrosion, soften hard water, prevent scaling, improve fuel efficiency, and on and on.
In your case, the "old" way is the "best" way.
Good Luck
From gart@atlanta.com Sat Jul 15 18:36:12 PDT 1995
Article: 8603 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Question: hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) writes:
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion
Regards, Harry Danberg
Reply: If you buy one of these, I have a nice bridge that I own that I would sell you...
*************************************
Greg Trollope
Omnes gen in Perry est
*************************************
From ugo.zaroli@interland.it Sat Jul 15 18:36:30 PDT 1995
Article: 8609 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Hello hdanberg@aol.com!
Question: Mercoledi Luglio 12 1995 03:07, hdanberg@aol.com wrote to All:
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion instead of using chemical treatment. The claim is that since no chemicals are used, there is no harm to the environment and I save money by not buying chemicals. It sounds too good to be true. The system consists of the LKC and a 5 micron sand filter. The cell creates a magetic field that causes the ions that create scale to "clump" together and be removed in the sand filter. The device draws 20-30 amps at 110v. From what I know, I cannot see how this will cause the effects claimed but I have spoken with several users of the system and they support the claims. Does any one have any comments on it's effectiveness or how a weak magnetic field can cause ions to "clump"?
Reply: Corrosion control is a topic you can see on several engineer'book, you can find several protection techniques, but nothing about magnetic field. Is it patented?? Where can I find an article about this fantasic invention which might change our lives?? Or is it a trick??
ugo
From shammatt@sos.net Sun Jul 16 10:39:30 PDT 1995
Article: 8615 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Question: hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) writes:
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion
Regards, Harry Danberg
Reply: gart@atlanta.com writes:
the reason these items seem to be too good to be true is because they are
From urquan@aol.com Sun Jul 16 20:31:16 PDT 1995
Article: 8629 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Question: hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) writes:
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion snip
Regards, Harry Danberg
don't go for that scam. buy the nonlinear kinetic cell that i willing to practically give away for a steal..........
chris
From gart@atlanta.com Thu Jul 20 20:07:09 PDT 1995
Article: 8678 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Reply: Actually, some years ago (10? 15?) there was a product like this advertised. The company I was working for then did an analysis of it ( out of respect for them, I will not mention their name). The researcher somewhat sheepishly reported that it had no positive or negative affect on the corrosion.
Another one of these things "too good to be true" was 'non-flammable acetone'. It turned out to be a 1% solution of acetone in water.
*************************************
Greg Trollope
Omnes gen in Perry est
*************************************
Article: 8681 of sci.engr.chem
From: csterner@postoffice.ptd.net (csterner)
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Reply-To: hrizuk@ptd.net
Ugo,
It is a false trick. Schemes like this are used to steal millions of dollars in the U.S.
Regards
C. Sterner, ChE, P.E.
From fwl@titan.np.ac.sg Thu Jul 20 20:07:44 PDT 1995
Article: 8684 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Question:In article (3tvoqu$5ec@newsbf02.news.aol.com), Danberg (hdanberg@aol.com) wrote:
Does any one have any comments on it's effectiveness or how a weak magnetic field can cause ions to "clump"?
Reply:My collegue is a hydroponics man. He reckons that passing water through strong magnets will allow plants to take up ions more rapidly and thus grow faster.
I have also read the blurb on the use of magnets in cooling water. The references from various companies who have used it seems impressive. I would also like more information.
--
Wayne Lee Forday, Biotechnology Department
Ngee Ann Polytechnic, Singapore
fwl@np.ac.sg
Article: 8816 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Date: 26 Jul 1995 09:02:41 -0400
hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) writes:
"The area of non-chemical deposit control is quite interesting and does in fact have numbers of successful applications in customer plants whose names would be instantly recognizable. Having reviewed and performed evaluations on several electrostatic devices I can say the position of skeptic is hard to shake until actual results are observed. The the problem becomes one of defining the mechanism.
I'm amazed at the level of emotion surrounding water treatment techniques. Many of the accepted chemical techniques commonly employed were once reviled as snake oil. There have been a disproportionant number of charlatains in this field but if one is both curious and patient in ones search there are some interesting surprises.
I've been a serious researcher in this area for several years. I'll be happy to share information with anyone who would like to review my notes."
I have been trying to keep an open mind about this system however the only support for the claims are "testimonials" from the vendors' customers. The vendor states that the location of the cell is after the filter and before the pump. The water, after treatment by the LKC flow through the pump, into the tower and then into the sand filter. If the ions are being "clumped" as claimed, I would not was to agitate them too much but instead remove them as quickly as possible prior to their breaking up.
Based on the vendors desciption, his claim is that the LKC removes fouling ions such as Ca and Mg. If this is the case, he should be able to demonstrate this on a small scale. What I envision is a small LKC, filter, pump and holding tank. Two runs would be performed, one with the cell on and one with it off. If the water sample is the same for both tests, the one with the LKC on should have lower dissolved mineral content. So far he has not been willing to perform the demonstration.
Any thoughts.
Regards,
Harry Danberg
From dillan@aol.com Sat Jul 29 20:17:15 PDT 1995
Article: 8800 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Question:In article (3v5edh$hip@newsbf02.news.aol.com), hdanberg@aol.com (HDanberg) writes:
....Based on the vendors desciption, his claim is that the LKC removes fouling ions such as Ca and Mg. If this is the case, he should be able to demonstrate this on a small scale. What I envision is a small LKC, filter, pump and holding tank. Two runs would be performed, one with the cell on and one with it off. If the water sample is the same for both tests, the one with the LKC on should have lower dissolved mineral content. So far he has not been willing to perform the demonstration.
Reply:A performance demonstration would absolutely be required. Even "tried and true" systems are routinely demonstrated as part of the purchasing decision.
Duncan F. Kimbro
DRE Technologies, Inc.
From mmpitts@hydrometals.com Mon Jul 31 20:43:10 PDT 1995
Article: 8877 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
I agree that demonstrations should be required. The problem often faced by the suppliers of the various non-chemical magnetic or electrostatic systems is the lack of solid laboratory data or well recorded field demonstrations. I think the principal difficulty is the undercapitalization of the small companies and the fact that they are often operated by people with shallow science or engineering backgrounds. They are trapped in a "chicken and egg" conundrum; good research data would sell more product but the research is expensive and often out of reach because of dollars.
I know of one company trying to build a truly technical base of information for the products. This company supports demonstrations and is currently seeking to do solid laboratory work. Anyone interested in participating in field or lab work should contact me for more details.
Mike Pitts
Hydrometals Research Inc.
Tuscon, Arizona
mmpitts@hydrometals.com
From wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca Tue Aug 1 17:42:19 PDT 1995
Article: 8894 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Magnetic water treatment
Message-ID: (3vj9k2$aco@mercury.arc.ab.ca) Reply-To: wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca
Does anyone know anything about magnetic fluid treatment (water or crude oil)? Please inform me at wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca. My main concern simply is "does it work?"
Thanks in advance.
From drgonfly@biosource.ultranet.com Tue Aug 1 17:42:42 PDT 1995
Article: 8901 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Magnetic water treatment
wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca wrote:
There is no scientific evidence that this does anything.
Reply: In the water treatment industry, it often does not matter if something works, however. I heard, that MGM grand hotel in Las Vegas bought thousands of them. If you are interested in innovative water treatment technologies that really do work, check out http://town.hall.org/cgi-bin/srch-patent Search for Andelman under 1995 or 1994, and you will see something called a flow through capacitor.
Article: 8921 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
Comment:In article (In article (3v3f0f$kni@nnrp2.primenet.com), mmpitts@hydrometals.com says:
I've never heard of the linear kinetic cell being sold for corrosion control but I have seen evidence that there is an effect in deposit prevention. Perhaps the recommendation is being made on corrosion abatment due to cleaner surfaces within the system and the resultant reduction of galvanic sites.
The U.S. patent for the linear kinetic cell is # 4,326,954 -Apr 27, 1982. if any of you have access to patent abstract or patent services.
The area of non-chemical deposit control is quite interesting and does in fact have numbers of successful applications in customer plants whose names would be instantly recognizable. Having reviewed and performed evaluations on several electrostatic devices I can say the position of skeptic is hard to shake until actual results are observed. The the problem becomes one of defining the mechanism.
I'm amazed at the level of emotion surrounding water treatment techniques. Many of the accepted chemical techniques commonly employed were once reviled as snake oil. There have been a disproportionant number of charlatains in this field but if one is both curious and patient in ones search there are some interesting surprises.
I've been a serious researcher in this area for several years. I'll be happy to share information with anyone who would like to review my notes.
Mike Pitts
Hydrometals Research Inc.
Tuscon, Arizona mmpitts@hydrometals.com
Reply: I received a brochure from a company selling this product. The references from satisfied companies were very good. The concern I guess that most people have is where is the energy for cooling water treatment coming from with this process. I wouldassume that if the system works, then the magnets would have to be replaced every so often.
Perhaps if you have information to share on this then more people would be open minded. They say that Magnetic treatment of water will also help plants grow better in hydroponics systems. Also when I was a student I heard about magnets being used in fluidized bed reactors in the petrochemical industry.
--
Wayne Lee Forday, Biotechnology Department
Ngee Ann Polytechnic, Singapore
fwl@np.ac.sg
From doug@pmafire.inel.gov Sun Aug 6 15:10:12 PDT 1995
Article: 9030 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Magnetic water treatment
No. It is a "snake oil" gimmick with a hint of truth and a crock full of bull.
From wosborn@ridgecrest.ca.us Wed Aug 9 12:51:17 PDT 1995
Article: 9096 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Cooling Tower Treatment
I have had some experience using static magnetic devices to control carbonate precipitation in water systems. Their effect has a short lifespan, ie on the order of minutes, but can provide adequate protection in recirculating systems. I agree that most people consider this to be snake oil, but I did see the results for myself. And, no, I don't sell them or have any financial interest in them, and didn't even buy the unit. It's effect wasn't strong enough for the severe system I was treating.
From wosborn@ridgecrest.ca.us Wed Aug 9 12:51:29 PDT 1995
Article: 9098 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Magnetic water treatment
I tested one that did show positive carbonate scale inhibition.
From wosborn@ridgecrest.ca.us Wed Aug 9 12:51:43 PDT 1995
Article: 9097 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: Magnetic water treatment
In article (3vj9k2$aco@mercury.arc.ab.ca), wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca says:
Question: Does anyone know anything about magnetic fluid treatment (water or crude oil)? Please inform me at wangy@oil.arc.ab.ca. My main concern simply is "does it work?"
Thanks in advance.
Reply: As discussed in other recent articles, it does work in some situations. The temporal effect is limited, but can be beneficial given the appropriate application.
From drgonfly@biosource.ultranet.com Wed Jun 21 23:15:54 PDT 1995
Article: 8204 of sci.engr.chem
From: Marc Andelman drgonfly@biosource.ultranet.com
Subject: Re: waste water cleanup/metals
Check out http://town.hall.org/cgi-bin/srch-patent and search for Andelman under either the 1994 04 1995 patents. You will find something called a Flow Through Capacitor. This is a new technology that uses a special capacitor with ultra high surface area materials in a flow through configuration. A waste stream containing ions is pumped through this high surface area capacitor. Upon applying a voltage, the ions absorb electrostatically to the surface. Tests with NaCl or Seawater solutions show that this works like gangbuster. For example, a .01 M , approx 1000 microSiemen NaCl feed can be desalted at a rate of at least 2000 GDP for each cubic foot of capacitor. The purification can be as greater than 99%. Once the capacitor is fully absorbed, the the capacitor is discharged and the absorsbed ions come out as a highly concentrated stream. This technology is somewhat similiar to ion exchange in some respects. A mixed bed ion exchange is in fact a kind of double layer capacitor. The nice difference is , in the Flow through capacitor, charged stationary phase can be electrically discharged. In ion exchange, you have to push off absorbed ions with some other ion. All ion exchange does is inmany cases is create one waste stream while purifying one. For exaple, with Nitrate purification, you would create a hazardous waste stream of nitrate and expensive acid regenerants.
With the FTC (flow through capacitor), you would create fertilizer. Similary, chrome recovered this way could simply be returned to the plating tank. RO and ED have other problems, such as generation of excess waste water, sensitivity of the membranes, etc.
Article: 8216 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Re: waste water cleanup/metals
Date: 21 Jun 1995 14:46:39 GMT
frgkr@mucc.mahidol.ac.th (Graham K. Rogers - EGEE) wrote:
excuse my ignorance (I teach English to Thai EG students) but would this process work in the removal of arsenic from water? Polluted water from tapioca processing contains arsenic and this obviously needs removal.
Graham
Reply: The answer is it is worth a try. The flow through capacitor is limited by the fact that you cannot operate it at a voltage that exceeds the nernst potential for the ionic contaminants at hand. For water , this is something like 1.2 volts, but in practice, you can operate the capacitor easily at 1.8 or even 2 volts due to overpotential. If you have a solution which starts to break down much below one volt, the efficieny of the flow through capacitor is greatly diminished. This would limit it's use away from easily plated metals like copper. Arsenic is fairly electronegative on the electrochemical series, so, depending on the salt form, it might well support enough voltage so that it could be purified with the capacitor. Once electrochemical breakdown occurs, you know longer have a capacitor, but end up with a solid block of metal. So far, I have excellent data with such species as Na, Mg, K, Ca, but also metals such as chrome. An Example of data for simple .01M NaCl solutions show that this technology is potentially very fast, as flow rates of 2000 GPD/cubic foot of capacitor bed have been achieved. Much more concentrated solutions can be purified, and product water can easily
be below 10 microSiemens. This is such a new process that studies are still being done to underline the full scope and power of this technology. We have sold these for research purposes to companies, and are currently trying to help get an industrial grant for an academic scientist.
(Poster of comment not recorded by me)
From hdanberg@aol.com Fri Jul 14 11:21:40 PDT 1995
Article: 8536 of sci.engr.chem
Subject: Cooling Tower Treatment
I am currently investigating the claims by a company selling a magnetic device called a "Linear Kinetic Cell" to prevent cooling tower corrosion instead of using chemical treatment. The claim is that since no chemicals are used, there is no harm to the environment and I save money by not buying chemicals. It sounds too good to be true.
The system consists of the LKC and a 5 micron sand filter. The cell creates a magetic field that causes the ions that create scale to "clump" together and be removed in the sand filter. The device draws 20-30 amps at 110v. From what I know, I cannot see how this will cause the effects claimed but I have spoken with several users of the system and they support the claims.
Does any one have any comments on it's effectiveness or how a weak magnetic field can cause ions to "clump"?
Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Harry Danberg
Keeper of the WWW Industrial Wastewater Engineering Virtual Library
Dr. Joseph D. Edwards, PE
Industrial Wastewater Engineering
Seattle, Washington, USA
Go to the Wastewater Engineering homepage (~10K)
Compiled by Joseph D. Edwards (use to learn)
Posted: 8/13/95